Hey Isaac,

My apologies for the slow response. Your post had quite a few questions in it and required more moments than I had over the weekend. If at all possible, try to break your posts up into individual questions. That way it's easier for me to answer and also easier for others to find help when searching the forum by thread title. But no worries. My answers in context below.

Isaac Toast said
Hi John, et al,

First of all, thanks for this opportunity to join and pick your brains. 

My/our pleasure Isaac. Thanks for being part of the IC.

I have been making music on and off for decades but have never promoted it. So, while, I have a body of work on Spotify, I have few, if any monthly listeners. Now I am rebranding and want to make a go of promoting my new music to see if I can eventually earn enough to live on from music sales and streaming, merch, and a membership site.  (I am not attempting to play online or live shows  for a number of reasons right now, but hope to start at some point down the road.) 

Now, I don't need much to get by - $3k per month ought to sustain me. So, setting aside possible revenue streams from sync licensing, live shows, and PRO royalties someday, I figure the 1000 true fans model ought to work out nicely as they would each need to only spend $3 a month on average if you don't count overhead. 

So I have a few questions. (I realize these are not all rebranding questions as the subject line would suggest. )

1. Is this an achievable goal without playing shows?  (I gather it is really, really hard to make a living on music alone, otherwise John, you and all these other music marketing gurus would probably just be making music, no?) 

It's absolutely possible and I have many students who do it. But it's hard purely because music is an incredibly risky business, no matter what strategy you employ. You sell cheap products that are expensive to produce, that don't solve any pre-existing problem, in an incredibly competitive space. Welcome to the music biz 🙂

I've addressed this many times over the years in interviews and coaching calls, but yes, the reality is that it's easier to make a living solving problems than it is selling music. But that's not why I do what I do. Mine is a bit of a unique situation in that I have spent my life in the music business, had four record deals, all of my albums are owned by labels, my publishing is owned by Sony, and I just hit a point (prior to MMM) where I got tired of the game and wanted to raise a family and bring in a more steady income.  That was what led me to online marketing, especially given that prior to learning about marketing my music career trajectory seemed like it was only heading in one direction. Initially, I was just looking to make money and I did well at that, which was when I realized that what I had learned about online marketing could be applied to musicians. This was in 2007; well before anyone else was doing this stuff in the music space. I got a real rush out of it and enjoyed working in the music space and pioneering a new path for indie musicians, and from that, MMM evolved. I am completely confident that if I wasn't supporting a family of five that I could support myself as a musician using these techniques (and I do generate thousands of dollars every year), but the truth for me is that I have just not felt the same drive as I once did and I have not been actively promoting my own music for a while other than to test strategies. I still make music and perform, and I think there is a good chance I will one day get some wind in my sail again, but for now I'm enjoying MMM and the stability it has provided, and helping others make their dreams possible. 

That said, there is definitely a lot of the "if you can't do, teach" going on in this space these days and it's all kinda gross.

2. What is a typical ratio of true fans to casual fans? In other words, is there a rule of thumb for say the number of Instagram or Spotify followers who go on to buy directly from artists? 

I've never seen a symmetry between social followers and sales/real fans. It's too all over the place depending on how those followers were generated. I do see a very consistent symmetry between one's list size and sales though Average for a decent funnel seems to be around 4% - 6%, with 10% being the ceiling aside from some extreme cases. And like anything, you can also do worse.

3. How much do artists typically spend on Facebook / IG ads to grow an audience to that size?  

I don't think there is a rule either. Most people who are new to this start off small and spend around $10/day. But I have students who are now spending over $500/day. Once you're profitable, the goal is to spend as much as possible and scaling becomes the hard part.

4. How long do artists typically take to get to 1000 true fans? I figure without touring or playing shows online it will take me longer but it would be good to know what the ballpark range is. 

Depends how much you spend. There is no rule here. Could happen in a few months with a big enough budget. Could take years or never happen at all. It also depends on your music and brand. If people aren't responding to it then the greatest marketing in the word can't help.

5. I am thinking of running Facebook reach ads on videos of my older music and then targeting the audience that watched a good chunk of those videos in conversion ads for my new brand. (iI am assuming if they liked my old music they will like my new music.)  It seems like it might get me more real fans that way than going straight to conversion ads that target fans of similar artists. Does that make sense as a strategy? 

Yep, this is an approach I have taught. It often results in cheaper subs, it often doesn't. Just depends on how people respond. Video is one of those things that doesn't leave anything to the imagination so you are relying more on the strength of your music than your copy, and to be totally honest, it is easier to compel people with copy than music. But if the music is exceptional then that can be a great approach. I would not use reach though. I would use video views and optimize for thruplays. I would also limit your audience to Facebook and Instagram. Stay away from audience network because of the recent iOS14 changes.

6. It seems like SMS marketing might be preferable to email these days since the open rates and engagement rates are higher. But I have heard you mention on the podcast or somewhere that you wouldn't bother with SMS. That might have been just for one particular case though. Any reason to stick with email over SMS? 

SMS hit it's peak years ago. Few marketers do much of it these days as it's perceived as a bit invasive. There are no doubt special cases, but I don't do it at all anymore.

Thanks! 

Isaac Toast 

My pleasure Isaac!

Not at all Isaac, I knew where you were coming from. But I would imply that there are shady people in the space. It's the nature of the world I guess. It's by no means limited to the music space. Just the coaching/consulting space in general. It really bums me out to be honest, when I see people who couldn't succeed teaching others how to succeed. But what are you gonna do.